St. Francis de Sales Wants You to Have Holy Friendships!
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In this installment of the Living Jesus Chat Room we will encounter the obstacles that keep us from perfect union with God. But we’re in good company, as we’ll remember that even the saints had to battle against self-love and other inordinate desires. May we simplify our desires so as to enter the promises of God.
Here we review the feast of the Presentation of Mary, November 21st. The presentation of a child in the temple was a way for parents to consecrate a child to God. That leads to Christmas when we celebrate the gift of a child to us. However, it is through the Christ-child that God enables us to be fully consecrated to him. Through the Incarnation God unites to our human nature so that we humans can be intimately united to him.
If you like the chat below, check out the Living Jesus Chat Room of the Visitation Sisters. Join us at 7:30 p.m. ET each Sunday! We read a passage of St. Francis de Sales and gather great insights and sharing!
Cindy: Hi, friends. I am on Day 9 of Covid-19 infection; fever leaves me with a headache that makes it hard to view computer screen. My heart is with you!
Visitation Sister: Oh Cindy! I did not know I will pray especially for you with the others.
Visitation Sister: I will be a bit late tonight because of Christ the King liturgy night prayer, but will be here.
Bethany: Hi Sister Susan. My mom’s eyes are sick, please pray for her.
Caroline: Hi Bethany, it’s Caroline. Sister Susan is not here yet. I will pray too.
Bethany: Thanks.
Deborah: Hi everyone! Caroline, I am so sorry you are sick, I will be praying for you, and I will be praying for your mom too, Bethany, that her eye gets better and she doesn’t have any more pain.
Deborah: Happy Feast Day, All!
Caroline: Thank you, Deborah, I sure need the prayers.
Deborah: Though it sounds like you both are having a difficult time right now.
Bethany: Happy the feast of Christ the King.
Visitation Sister: Hi everybody! Glad to see so many here! But pray for Cindy, she has Covid.
Deborah: Yes, absolutely.
Visitation Sister: Next Sunday is Advent!
Deborah: I can’t believe it!
Caroline: It hardly seems possible.
Denise: A new year begins!
Visitation Sister: Yesterday, Feast of the Presentation, we Sisters renewed our vows. What do you know about the feast of the Presentation of Mary?
Caroline: I have heard some stories, but I don’t really know much.
Sherry: I do not know anything about the Feast of the Presentation of Mary.
Deborah: Honestly, I never learned anything or even heard of the Presentation of Mary in school growing up, but that was a looooong time ago!!!
Denise: Is that the day you took vows, Sister, or maybe you all renew on the same day?
Visitation Sister: We all renew it publicly on this day. I took my vows Aug 15. It is a public renewal, but this year the only public there was the priest.
Deborah: That’s beautiful, Sister.
Visitation Sister: Usually we have people in the chapel.
Denise: Beautiful day to renew with everyone together.
Deborah: Others were there in spirit.
Sherry: It might have been beautiful, intimate this year for all of you too.
Visitation Sister: It was intimate: only 3 of us since the elderly Sisters are in the Infirmary this year, but they also renewed. So, we have 3-days retreat before renewing. This year I used homilies of St John Paul II that had excerpts on the evangelical counsels.
Sherry: Can you choose the homilies?
Visitation Sister: Yes, you can choose. We have freedom in these retreats.
Deborah: It’s a very difficult time for everyone.
Sherry: May these special circumstances of this year renewal grow a special bond between the three of you.
Visitation Sister: The Presentation of Mary is not in Scripture but in some apocryphal Gospels and in visionaries’ writings like Bl Catherine Emmerich. She was presented, they say, at about 3 years of age. Some people get this feast confused with the February 2nd Presentation of Our Lord.
Deborah: Being a mom, I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been for her parents.
Visitation Sister: That is for sure, but they were holy, and no doubt had special grace as well.
Deborah: Though I know they were blessed, I can’t imagine it not being difficult.
Denise: Wasn’t this a Jewish custom, all children before 3 were presented to God? We can know she was. I only imagine it was a beautiful presentation.
Visitation Sister: Perhaps, I am not sure. Good research question!
Caroline: But Mary grew up in the Temple?
Denise: Yes!
Deborah: Yes.
Visitation Sister: Yes, but by 14 she was back in Nazareth when the Archangel came.
Visitation Sister: Question 2: When we look at ourselves, what kind of personal weaknesses of self-love do we have concerning the “two nations” struggling within our wombs.
Deborah: Sometimes I think that they chose the age of 3 because at that point the children are out of the “terrible” 2’s. I know Mary and her parents were special, but she did share our humanity too…just like her son.
Caroline: My heart wants to follow God, but I struggle with giving my desires to God to take care of things.
Sherry: I really wish I would understand your question in regard to the two nations in the womb better. I get the link to the Old Testament, but a weak-ness in self-love, what could that be?
Deborah: For me, it’s letting go.
Sherry: Ooh, weakness OF self-love.
Deborah: It’s about me, even in prayer.
Sherry: So... where we put ourselves before GOD. Oh, there are many weaknesses. In the past – but still sometimes, in my marriage probably. But it reaches down to areas. where I so long for holiness – but then notice that even that longing is attached to self-love and self-efficacy. I want to become holy on my own terms, just cannot outrun sin.
Deborah: I know sometimes I get scared when things happen, not saying I shouldn’t, that’s human, but I forget that God is there…always…to help me, comfort me.
Visitation Sister: There are times of selfishness during the day at least for me when I know God might want me to focus on another’s need.
Caroline: We cannot outrun it, so we should run to Jesus.
Deborah: He eases my fears when I let Him. I would think I “get it” by now.
Sherry: Good point, Caroline. Don’t be too hard on yourself, Deborah. You might “bounce” back into His arms faster now than in previous years.
Deborah: Run to Jesus with it! He never refuses us. He has never refused me, I just need to remind myself, it’s not always the way I am looking for it to be.
Visitation Sister: That’s a good way of battling it! Fits right into that next question: What are some ways that we can battle that self-love?
Caroline: Meditating on the necessity of the Crucifixion.
Sherry: I know that battling self-love is easiest for me when I immerse myself a lot in Holy reading. (also, biographies of Saints). Also praying the rosary with intentional meditation on the mysteries seems to help. Being reminded how much I am forgiven. That is probably somewhat what Caroline meant too.
Caroline: Me too. I also like the Seven Sorrows rosary.
Deborah: Sometimes those stories help me, sometimes they don’t. I must go to Him as I am…all bumped and bruised and battered, just to rest in His embrace. He knows what I need.
Caroline: Yes, don’t let sin chase you.
Sherry: Yes – resting in His embrace is sure soothing.
Deborah: Self-love is hard to recognize sometimes.
Visitation Sister: Yes, just being with Jesus in a loving way in silence.
Sherry: I could spend hours, sitting in silence with Him. Is contemplative prayer part of Salesian Spirituality?
Visitation Sister: Yes, definitely!
Sherry: So glad to hear that.
Deborah: I can do something that would be considered a “good,” but I must be sure I am not seeking recognition or reward…no matter how small. It must be from me, for Jesus.
Visitation Sister: St Jane said that one should have a simple gaze on God.
Sherry: Yes, love that “simple gaze on God.”
Visitation Sister: Deborah are you referring to this question? How do we strike the balance between having a good, simple desire versus having an inordinate desire?
Deborah: Someone asked the Cure D’Ars what he does all day sitting before the Blessed Sacrament and he said, “He looks at me, and I look at Him.” I think that is such a wonderful image.
Caroline: Is inordinate desire a disordered desire? Destiny for the wrong reason?
Sherry: As for your question, Sr Susan. But I do not think that there should be a balance. Should not inordinate desires be gone for good, if possible?
Visitation Sister: That’s a good point, Sherry!
Deborah: I guess in some ways I am. Even in the secular world, when we see someone who does something…starts a special charitable group, pay for housing, etc., but the real reason they are doing it is for the tax rebates…they are still a good to those receiving, but the reason is self-motivated.
Sherry: Maybe I misunderstand inordinate desire. I also thought it is disordered. These situations are so brutally hard for me not to judge.
Visitation Sister: True, Deborah. Sherry, I will check, inordinate may also indicate a too strong desire for something.
Sherry: Oh. Thanks for clarifying, Sister.
Deborah: The balance must begin in my heart. Who is at its center?
Caroline: How can you have too strong a desire for God?
Visitation Sister: in·or·di·nate /in'ôrd(?)n?t/ (adjective); unusually or disproportionately large; excessive. I don’t think it was referring to God but to things.
Sherry: I think the desires here are directed towards the world, not towards God. Humility is a good counterbalance to inordinate desires maybe.
Deborah: For me, loving God is not something to do, but a way to live. Here and now on earth in our brothers and sisters. That is what Jesus came to show us. Dying to ourselves is a small crucifixion each time we choose Him.
Sherry: In the way “I am who I am” not more and not less.
Deborah: “Be who you are and be that well, to bring glory to the Master who made you!!!”.
Sherry: Also, being so close to God’s heart that we literally can feel how inordinate desires slowly pull us away from His heart. That motivates me to give them up or reel them in.
Deborah: I believe that is all I can be & all Jesus wants me to be, though, always with my eyes and heart turned toward Him and His kingdom.
Sherry: I know this is not Salesian, but in the Ignatian Exercises there is a part called Principle and Foundation, and it speaks that we are made to love, revere, and serve GOD. and this is the absolute base. When we look at the bottom of inordinate desires – they often serve us more than God – and often cover an area where we avoid trusting Him.
Deborah: Sherry, I believe, for me, that’s what makes it so hard. Some of those things I need to reel in are things I’ve grown used to, attached to…but they also do no further my journey to union with Him. So, leaving them behind…yes, that is very hard sometimes. I believe St. Francis de Sales studied with the Jesuits and I find a great similarity between the two spiritualities.
Caroline: And there is the question of why we want to be closer to God. Is it for His sake, or because we want something?
Sherry: A good Spiritual Director can help you identify and find a way out of these desires. Deborah. I just tackled a lifelong battle with gluttony. God graced me so much to step out of that inordinate desire.
Visitation Sister: St Francis de Sales studied under the Jesuits, and they influenced him greatly.
Sherry: I thought so, when I started reading Salesian literature, I noticed that some things are very, very compatible with Ignatian Spirituality.
Denise: Or do we want to be closer because he tells us we were born to know love and serve God. It is the base reason we are here.
Deborah: That is true, but it is all my work with God’s grace.
Sherry: I think our desire to be closer to God, even if we cannot fully word it sometimes what it is, is a sign that we were made for that.
Denise: We have to know him to love him.
Sherry: And it helps to love Him to know Him better.
Visitation Sister: The Lord always will help us to grow away from our weaknesses, but we need patience.
Deborah: Yes to that, but every spiritual director I’ve ever had has always asked me, in just these words, “Yes, Deborah, but do you ever shut up long enough to listen to what He has to say to you in reply to all your questions?”
Visitation Sister: Ah yes, listening is more important than talking.
Sherry: Yes. Impatience with our own personal spiritual journey can be also something that is more directed to please us -more than GOD. Oh my, the self-love is popping up anywhere when we look closely.
Deborah: I’m trying.
Sherry: That is listening.
Caroline: Self-love sneaks in just everywhere.
Sherry: I agree, Caroline.
Sherry: Do you think God has something to say, Deborah?
Deborah: Absolutely! He has so much to tell me, I just need to listen & then we can work together to affect that change in me so we can be united when the time comes.
Sherry: See? you are all set to listen, Deborah. What would help you to listen a little bit more? Sorry, Deborah. That just popped out of my fingers here.
Visitation Sister: Yes, this was something our alum arranged, did you all have a chance to listen to it.
Deborah: Changing 66 years of habits I’ve acquired…it just may take me 70 year more to change, even with His help. But no one knows me as well as He from before my birth & He still brought me into this existence.
Sherry: I do not recall a link. Am I not on an email list maybe?
Visitation Sister: A short newsletter will come out on it, but I will give you a link.
Sherry: You are so right Deborah. He knows you so very well. And off to the next 66 years. Thank you, Sister.
Visitation Sister: https://visitationspirit.podbean.com/
Deborah: What link are you referring to?
Visitation Sister: the one above on the podcast on St Margaret Mary.
Denise: Many treasures in the Visitation Spirit website, thank you.
Deborah: Oh, thanks.
Visitation Sister: You are welcome!
Sherry: Have to look around on this website more.
Visitation Sister: Q: What do you think it would have been like to be Moses on the cusp of entering the Promised Land, but only making it to where it was within sight? What lesson might we learn from this event?
Caroline: So extraordinarily painful.
Deborah: For me it says: God’s will not mine.
Denise: The lesson may be to listen to and to obey God.
Deborah: Not easy, but if I love Him and say I want to live only for Him, that also includes something difficult, but necessary for me to unite with Him in eternity.
Sherry: I always found that one of the harshest Bible passages. I mean, seriously? Moses gave so many years, fully dedicated, and then this? What comforted me one day was when I realized that Moses actually DID enter the promised land. At the Transfiguration in the New Testament, he is right there. so, some things might be just fulfilled in heaven.
Deborah: Yes! And that is the ultimate reward. Heaven!
Sherry: The true promised land.
Deborah: Amen!
Sherry: I wonder if God also wanted to show for leaders that their decisions are so very important, when they lead a flock.
Caroline: I think it comes from him striking the rock three times instead of once, he just couldn’t fully believe water would come from the rock.
Sherry: So, an action of doubt?
Deborah: …and that’s all it took.
Sherry: I thought that he just repeated what he had done before, in a similar situation, without really going to God.
Sherry: Sorry. I might mix up these two passages right now.
Caroline: He was still loved and forgiven, but there was still a consequence.
Deborah: A lifetime of obedience, and one moment of human doubt because it “couldn’t” be possible to us.
Visitation Sister: FYI- not on topic but here is something you may be interested in. It’s on St Francis de Sales.
Deborah: Thanks.
Sherry: Interesting, that we do not read more about the internal struggle of Moses on that. His death seemed to be quite peaceful.
Deborah: He was loved and he knew it. I don’t believe there was ever any doubt in that…just the silly, normal, human stuff.
Deborah: He was loved, but that stuff also needed to be purged before he could “enter the promised land.”
Visitation Sister: His own purgatory?
Deborah: Yep.
Sherry: I was just about to write that.
Sherry: Sounds like purgatory. Interesting thought.
Caroline: It does.
Deborah: Absolutely. Even a microsecond of separation feels like an eternity.
Sherry: Do you think Moses would have been ready for the promised land?
Sherry: You got me thinking now.
Visitation Sister: Our souls need purifying, and I guess his might have too.
Deborah: I do believe that.
Visitation Sister: While he was forgiven in his earlier life, he killed someone.
Visitation Sister: So maybe there was a residue, but I think Caroline answered about the rock and the water situation.
Deborah: Very true…that was all part of his journey.
Sherry: But I always was under the impression that this was dealt with already at the burning bush, or before.
Deborah: Yes, but only God has the final answer. I’ve been thinking about the two thieves who were crucified with Jesus.
Visitation Sister: You might be right!
Sherry: What Caroline said, about the striking three times?
Visitation Sister: Yes, that was a fault. So much we don’t know and can only speculate.
Deborah: I know we only heard about the “good” thief; we really don’t know if at the moment of his final breath where his heart was???
Deborah: It is always God’s will in the end, and that’s what I must learn to accept in my everyday comings & goings.
Caroline: Jesus was pretty matter of fact. You will be with me in Paradise today.
Deborah: Yes, but we don’t hear anything else from the “bad” guy…we don’t really know…. God sees into the heart…. we can’t.
Visitation Sister: Last question: Are you surprised that a saint like St. Jane de Chantal would have such a weakness within her heart as St. Francis describes?
Deborah: No. She is human. The grace was that she even addressed it and brought it to St. Francis.
Sherry: Yes, and the humility to address it. I think only someone close to Sainthood is sensitive enough to notice these small movements of the soul.
Caroline: Sometimes I think I am improving, but then I am shown how far I have to go still.
Deborah: I believe that is an invitation to me…to listen & look with a discerning eye to my acts and motives, and then bring them to Jesus for healing.
Sherry: Welcome to the club, Caroline. That makes life with GOD so exciting though.
Visitation Sister: To be balanced about ourselves is important and not to become scrupulous: trust God!
Deborah: St. Augustine, I think, said that we are in the process of conversion until 15 minutes after we die.
Caroline: It’s not just a job, it’s an adventure!
Sherry: Yes, this concept of scrupulosity, I have to look closer into that.
Deborah: I am always learning and changing, putting myself into the Master Potter’s hands for molding and re-molding.
Caroline: And someday we will be just right.
Sherry: It seems to me that “the enemy of human nature” can take your desire for holiness and can twist it so much that it actually hinders your growth towards God’s heart sometimes.
Sherry: Yes, Caroline. What an adventure it is!!!
Visitation Sister: Indeed! And may the adventure continue this Advent!
Deborah: ABSOLUTELY!!! I had a real example of that right before I made my Consecration…. The evil one can’t stand it when we decide to move closer to God.
Visitation Sister: Let’s pray for each other and especially for Cindy and Ruth.
Caroline: Sometimes, if He wasn’t holding on to me….
Visitation Sister: Many blessings to you!
Caroline: Me too, Deborah.
If you liked this chat, join us at the Living Jesus Chat Room of the Visitation Sisters this week Sunday at 7:30 p.m. ET.
Kevin J. Banet is a journalist and publicist. He provides marketing for religious communities, non-profits and healthcare services. Kevin and his family live in the Chicago area. His website is VocationPromotion.com.
